Hello everybody,
One of my friends called Katharina asked me a question about Islam, I’m so sad ’cause I didn’t know the true answer for her question, actually I’ve been asked that question before, and I forget the answer , please if somebody know the answer, and want to help us in explaining the Islam, then please come to
http://peaceroot.blogspot.com
This is the link of the Question: http://peaceroot.blogspot.com/2006/03/mad.html
This is the link of the Answers: http://peaceroot.blogspot.com/2006/03/unmadding.html
Katharina is German girl, and she’s a good friend of mine, im so sad she got a bad idea about Islam, please help us if you can.
on 25 Mar 2006 at 9:20 am # Dozz
hey…i’d really hate it 2 if i couldnt answer a question about islam…i’d hate myself!
anyway,i might not be able to answer this properly,but i’ll help out…
i just read a post that said she heard on an arab network that killing such a person’s not a must…
but i guess if it was(n im pretty sure it is)then its just about a person who reaches a very high level of spirituality n fulfillment(as in islam) n then rejecting that…we all know how islam makes perfect sense….gives the most reasonable answers…so for a person to bump into something sooo right n great(in my opinion)..and then walk away…he must be insane…or he just cant handle the truth about whats right n wrong…he’d rather follow his insticts…or chose a more liberal…ambiguous belief….
though i dont think that would apply to christianity,or jewdism….
thats how i c it,i hope i helpes clear things out…
on 26 Mar 2006 at 12:00 pm # Abed. Hamdan
thank you dozz, i’ll try my best to find the answer, i just need sometime, im in the middle of my first exams :s
on 26 Mar 2006 at 3:08 pm # Joachim
I was really hoping that some “moderate” muslim would step forward and unequivocally repudiate the notion that murdering a convert has a place within Islam. Instead, these answers reaffirm that there really is no such thing as moderation in Islam. As I understand you Dozz, Islam is so decent, loving, and insightful, that anyone who subsequently rejects it must be killed. Truly barbaric. The magnitude of your hypocracy is immeasurable. I initially had more questions for you: Why is Islam the common denominator in the Trade Center bombings, the 911 atrocities, the Madrid bombings, the Maylasia bombings, the London bombings, the Cartoon riots, the Darfur genocide, the ongoing Sunni-Shiite massacres, to name a few? But I think you’ve already supplied the answer — Islam is a regressive, intolerant and ultimately violent ideology wholly incompatible with diversity, individuality and progressive thought. Let’s face it Katrina, with your views, the Taliban would have shot you in a soccer stadium for half-time entertainment in the name of Islam without any protest from your good muslim friends here. Katrina, if you’re still searching for a religion, I highly recommend that you read The End of Faith, by Sam Harris. He also has a good answer to your first question.
on 26 Mar 2006 at 3:55 pm # Abed. Hamdan
Joachim: let me teach you something here, you will thank me for it when you grow up. First rule: when you talk about something, you should better known what you’re talking about, and second: you should respect others beleifs, and you should respect what you are, accusing Islam (as a religion) to be Barbaric reflects one and only one thing : your implotieness and how small is your limited mind. Religions must be respected regardless of every personal point of view. Now you’re talking about Islam, go read about it, you’re talking more than 1400 yrs nation. Now you’re judging the “Religion” and it’s clear that TV is your sacred source of knowledge (how pitty). Ok taliban 9/11, whatever you say. All muslims rejects 9/11 and stands with the American people against Taliban and against their government that established Taliban to fight the Soviet. I’ll be too small to tell you “War in Iraq” or “Atomic bomb in Japan” or bla bla bla.. i don’t judge nations by judging their governments.
We as educated civilized people, we don’t accuse religions, and we don’t judge religions by judging “some” followers of that religion. All religions are based on mercy and love, if you take your morals and rules from TV, then you probably needs long long time to grow up.
I feel sorry for you, one day you’ll grow up, I’ll pray for you ’till that day come
on 26 Mar 2006 at 4:46 pm # Abed. Hamdan
Joachim:
P.S.: you’re at my blog, and here you’re not allowed to insult any religion(including yours), and you’re not allowed to insult anybody. You’re only allowed to insult your self, and you already did.
on 26 Mar 2006 at 5:29 pm # Joachim
Sorry Abed, my purpose is certainly not to insult you. Like Katrina, I’m sincerely looking for answers to some very troubling events, which are undeniably related to Islam. Katrina’s question was quite specific: does Islam really condone the killing of apostates? You offer an untroubled, Yes. But you then fail to acknowledge that this type of murder is the very definition of intolerance, disrespect, and obviously violence. And you lecture me about “respecting” the religious beliefs of others? What about the religious beliefs of the convert; are they entitled to respect? I raised several other major recent events, which were motivated by Islam (without any significant or widespread objection by muslim moderates). Your responses to these issues are completely devoid of any facts or analysis, and you fail to point out which of my assertions are factually flawed. As an aside, you may not blame my “ignorance” on television — I have chosen not to own one for nearly 10 years. As for history, its actually something I take an interest in, but I remain troubled by some aspects of muslim history. For instance, I have learned that in the 7th Century muslims began to argue among themselves about whether Ali or Abu Bakr should lead the way following Muhammad’s death. There was much fighting and killing over the issue. I now see that (not on tv, but in virtually every source of media) Sunnis and Shiites are still killing each other 1400 years later. This isnt another example of violence and intolerance at the very root of the ideology (must be my ignorance again)? I also failed to see much evidence that “all muslims reject 911″, etc., because I seem to recall much media coverage of widespread muslim celebrations over these events. Again, more troubling evidnece of a violent ideology. No Abed, civilized and educated people are not obligated to respect and defer to any ideology simply because it is cloaked in the mantel of “religion”. As far as I can see, Islam, like any ideology, has some questions to answer before its entitled to respect. If you find that proposition insulting, perhaps you should reexamine the breadth of your own mind, and ask why challenges to your ideas are so threatening and offensive to you. I think Milton commented, “Let truth and falsehood grapple, for who ever knew truth put to the worst in a free and open contest.” You seem to want to shelter your beliefs from any challenge and to avoid any contest of ideas. Katrina has asked a good question, and she’s received no good answer. I wonder why.
on 26 Mar 2006 at 11:11 pm # Abed. Hamdan
Joachim: Oh fine. please go and read what we wrote on the question of Katharina. She asked, and i didn’t have the answer, i told her to wait ’till i get her the answer, i have an exam in a couple of hours. go read the issue then enrich us of your fabulous comments.
About your Islamic history emporium knowledge, Ali and Abu bakr were fellows of Muhammad ( peace upon him ), and they lived in the first century, at the dawn of Islam, according to you, those men lived more than 700 yrs. Again, go and read carefuly.
And you said that Muslims celebrating 9/11 ?? It seems that you know everything about the more than one billion muslims alive.
How could we celebrate something Taliban accused of, while we as Arab coutries has suffered from Taliban, Taliban Bombed Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and many other countries. Bush Government has established Taliban. Go blame it.
We are not animals to celebrate 9/11. we didn’t. how come you saw us celebrating 9/11 ?? we have much more events to celebrate, we have war across our islamic countries “to celebrate”.!
Sunnah and Shaii are killing each others ?? since when ??
I’ve lived my firs 18 yrs in Kuwait, were half of the population are Shaii, and the other half is Sunnah, and were not killing each others !
Who told you that piece of information ?? If there are some problems and responses in Iraq, so it’s obvious that Iraq is like Jungle right now, thanks for Bush/Blaire Democracy. Have we ever heared about such conflicts between sunnah and Shaii before The war in Iraq. Surely not.
Your knowledge included judging me again, man, do you know me ??
who said that im sheltering my knowledge ?? If I’m what you say, then i wouldn’t be discussing anything here. Im seeking the truth myself, i dont know everything, but i have a strong beleif in Islam and Muhammad, and im not ashamed of it, im not hiding it, nobody forced me so, i just used my mind.
About replying your “Events” that Islam is supposed to be blamed for. I told you im too small to blame “you” back for War in Iraq, or for the Imperialism on 19th century,or..
I don’t play the blame game, i seek peace and love, unlike you.
Im not blaming you for your thoughts, it’s what your media want you to know. I recommend you calm down, and read a little bit about Islam. We (muslims) are normal human beings, just like you, we just have weak poor countries nowadays, which wasn’t the case during the 1400 yrs. And according to history lessons; this situation won’t last.
Im really sorry for people who just want to be aggressive to each others. Why do you increase hatered and racism ?? ain’t peace is a better idea ??
Muslims and Christians lived in peace for many several centuries, none can deny it. Of course those years were not perfect, but they are proof that neither christians nor muslims are barbarians.
Regardless of your beleifs, Im sure of what Islam is, i hope that you get to know it better. Come and visit Jordan or Lebanon or any Islamic country, I guarantee you that you are going to see normal humans, not Barbarians, as you media told you.
I still insist accusing religion of being “Barbarian” or whatever is impolite, it’s a shame. even if you don’t like some rules of it, doesn’t give you the right to judge in such impolite way, there better way to contradict things. If im a limited mind man, then i could have responded back with some impolite words toward ur religion, but i won’t, i dont seek hatered. Peace is a better idea. and respect people and their beleifs.
on 27 Mar 2006 at 2:21 am # JustKatharina
hey guys..im reading this discussion about my question and it gives me an answer to antoher question i have..now i see why people kill each other because of religion..im sorry abed but u sound aggressive too..eventhou i can understand u!both of u shouldnt try to throw simpel facts at each other..shouldnt we ask ourself how we can change it?!not who is there to blame?!i cann see both points of view and im kind of betwen it..cause i see some stuff like abed and some like joachim but isnt lliving in peace about trying to see one another point of view or at least respect it as long as it doesnt hurt anybody? im looking forward to the answer to my first question thou abed..hope ur exam goes ok and that uc an find the answer somehow for me..thank u!!
on 27 Mar 2006 at 1:46 pm # Dozz
im really getting sick reading those comments…frankly,i dont feel the need to convince someone who argues as u do joechim…
but i got this question…do u actually believe muslims were behind all those things????do u actually believe everything ur told????
i totally agree with abed..u need some serious education about islam….from a dependable source!
its really sad how some people can be irrational when it comes to islam…is it that threatening?!
on 27 Mar 2006 at 10:21 pm # JustKatharina
hope ur not getting sick of my comments too dozz..see its kinda hard for me to get a obview on islam..i mean if i ask a muslim he will sure not tell me its horrible and if i ask an american for example he will sure not tell me its the greatest thing in the world..u know what i mean?i only have the information im looking up(stuff on tv i ignore its anyways just bullshit)and the impression i get from the 100.000 muslims that live in my town..but they arent the best example either i guess..cause a lot of them told me that they only came from turkey to germany so they can celebrate their religion in a stricter way than it is allowed in turkey..i mean that kinda weird..and they never really talk with us either..i tryed but a lot of them arent even intrested in it..so where should i get objective information from?!
on 27 Mar 2006 at 10:44 pm # Abed. Hamdan
Katharina: No, i told you i’ll give the answer, i’ve finished my exam today, so i just need couple of days ’till i give u the formal answer. Im asking people right now. Im seeking to give the “right” answer,it’s not necessarily the answer you want to hear. I already told you about that rule and it’s imposed in Islam. Im just seeking to give you the whole picture by answering the following question: When , why, and under what condition s must this rule be applied. I told you I only know that this rule has protected Islam from intruders for ages. But still im seeking to give a formal and complete answer.
Sorry for being late, the first exams were the reason why Im late. you know Engineering is Hell.!~
Here we are not seeking just to brighten the picture of Islam, we want to give the exact and FULL picture of Islam, even if u find somethings odd or weird, you should know it. and I told before, Parts of Islam might not give sense as individuals, but the sum of its part will give the greatest sense. I hope i can help you understand what Im trying to say.
apologies again for the latency.!
on 27 Mar 2006 at 11:12 pm # Abed. Hamdan
Katharina: you feel free to ask me anything, and whenever you want. I’ll answer what i know, and i’ll for what i don’t know. Be sure of that, and be my guest
on 27 Mar 2006 at 11:19 pm # JustKatharina
gosh im falling in love with u;)just kidding..but i know u need time for the answer and thats ok..i know engineering is hell..ask my brother:)maybe its the answer i wanna hear cause i wanna understand it..but maybe, and i hope u can respect that, i cant understand it.. i mean im justz against killing in EVERY way..im against death penalty and all stuff like that..so i might just not agree..but thats ok i guess..at least i wanna understan;)
and thanks for the offer..i will probably have more questions:)
on 28 Mar 2006 at 4:54 pm # Joachim
I’m sorry Abed, but I have a hard time engaging in polite conversation about murder, particularly when its justification rests on the absurdity that an innocent man should die merely for adopting a different view about God. And yes Dozz, I find it very threatening that Islam sanctions such premeditated killing of a person for committing this so called crime of religious ambivalence. You started this conversation blithely discussing this execution as though Katharina asked about wedding etiquette or proper ritual food preparation. My god, we’re talking about the cold-blooded killing of another human being for no other reason than his religious ideas. Threatening? You bet it is. Katharina, what possible difference can the “when, why and conditions” make concerning this question? There simply is no conceivable set of facts that could morally justify killing someone for their beliefs about God. Why would you need anyone’s permission to be offended by that act? Why are you afraid to judge it? Its murder. Are you really willing to politely excuse this depravity in the name of culteral diversity? Abed answers that this act is merely one facet of an ideology that must be considered as a greater whole. And I suppose this would be true, if we were discussing some banal question of religious practice, like whether to eat meat or pray in the morning versus evening. But we’re not. We’re talking about taking another man’s life because of what he believes. That’s just wrong. And don’t misunderstand me; I accept the notion of justifiable homicide, I’m not a pacifist, or a moral absolutist. On this question though, I don’t care through what moral or cultural prism you examine the issue — its wrong to kill a man because he no longer shares your views. Moreover, Dozz, I don’t have a shadow of a doubt that muslims were behind every event I spoke of, not because the “media” told me, but rather because the objective, rational facts point to no other conclusion. The fact that you engage in some escapist fantasy (what, the Jews conspired to blow up the Trade Center — which ones let you in on the secret?) rather than confront the troubling reality of Islamic political extremism is perhaps the most threatening aspect of this conversation. Because if decent, caring, and intelligent people like yourselves are not willing to take a critical and meaningful look at the political forces of Islam, we’re all in a lot of trouble.
p.s. I hope the exam went well.
on 29 Mar 2006 at 1:06 am # Dozz
kathrina,on the contrary,ur comments are the bright side of this conversation…;)
joachim,
i beleive abed provided the full answer to the question,as much as i’de like to end this conversation coz its really going nowhere..i need to clear some points :
1.Islam is threatening to u people not because it involves cold-blooded murder(it doesnt!)…i wonder what would u call executing a person for betraying his country???!!…ur afraid islam might spread..Rule!…
2.As a muslim..who REALLY knows what is islam..i know that people who do all those horrible things in the name of islam are just not muslims!!…they know nothing about the core of islam and they dont represent it in any way…conspiracies?…its possible…anything’s possible in politics i believe….its funny how make ur own conclusions based on the facts u get from the media….for me…they lost their credibility loong ago…
again…its all about ignorance!!!!!
abed,
im speechless..ur the greatest!!..n i know how engineering is!!been there..:/
yalla gud luck…mid terms r not that far!!!
on 29 Mar 2006 at 4:59 am # Joachim
Dozz,
1. The only punishable act for “betraying” my country requires a person to engage in warfare (that’s attempting to kill) against fellow citizens. But people are fully permitted to denounce the government, burn flags, protest, renounce citizenship, leave the country, disagree with everything, change political parties, change ideas and beliefs — in other words, people can think whatever the hell they want and its not even a crime, let alone one punishable by death. So, to answer your questionn –I’d be extremely upset if a person were executed for “betraying” my country if that betrayal only involved their thoughts, ideas or beliefs. Killing someone for their ideas is fascism. Its really that simple.
2. So, what you’re saying is that there really is no such thing as Islamic extremism. Committing violent, militant acts in the name of Islam just means they’re not really muslim. ??? You’re right Dozz, this conversation is going nowhere. In fact, this conversation is going nowhere in the entire muslim world. And that’s the problem.
p.s. if you don’t trust any media, where do you get your information? Just curious.
on 29 Mar 2006 at 8:27 am # Abed. Hamdan
Dozz: Thank you
Joachim: Man, you think it’s a conversation, but actually it’s not. How come you are trying to start a conversation by accusing people to be “Barbarians” or whatever. If you don’t like us, then leave us alone, If you think we’re lower than you, then don’t come and talk to us in an impolite way. Katharina asked a question, and I didn’t know the answer, and i asked for the answer. Now what are you doing here ?? trying to start a fight ??
We are trying to reduce the hole between the two worlds, not to increase hatered between us.
I told you i can play the blame game and start accusing and blaming, but I won’t. There are always better ways.
If you’re looking for a fight, then im not your best choice. If you hate us to a point that you can’t have a decent conversation with us, then just go away. All your posts contained un-justified accuses, inAccurate information, impolite words, blaming, and whining. What do you expect us to answer you back ?
There are many people here who like your type of conversations, you see them on TV burning flags or whatever, go and talk to them, have fights with them, and start accusing them with whatever. I told you if you have a question you can ask, but to have a conversation with us, you’d better be polite, decent, accurate with your information, and you should respect our humanity and yours.
I don’t think i’ll be answering any of your posts, they are all the same, and sorry for saying that they are worthless. I’ll just ignore you.
You don’t wanna have a conversation, it’s clear.
on 29 Mar 2006 at 5:37 pm # Joachim
Abed,
First, you’ll recall that this conversation started with your good friend Katharina characterizing this Islamic tenet as “fucking crazy” and something out of “the stone ages.” Someone on her site first responded that this practice is “STUPID,” engaged in only by “fanatics” and must be “stopped.” It seems to me that my characterizing senseless murder as “barbaric” is, by comparison, a measured and, some would say, even polite description. I can only speculate as to why you hold Katharina to a different standard. In any event, I’m sorry that I sounded like I was just whining. Generally, I only whine when I spill coffee on my tie before work, or when my kids neglect their chores, or when my basketball picks are so far off (like this year)– you get the idea. In this instance, I meant to sound really angry and seriously offended that Islamic law requires executing people for their religious beliefs — and not merely whiney. Ah well, perhaps you’re right, what’s the big deal. I guess the bastard deserves it. Why should I care, anyway. Which ironically brings me to “what am I doing here” in the first place? Bear with me; a few weeks ago, I saw a play at the University in my town. It was about the plight of Palastinians, and it raised compelling questions about US policy in the region, and caused me to seriously question a number of assumptions. Let me be candid — I was moved. It was a great play about the people, their lives, and the effects of politics. I felt like I needed to help, get involved, do something. And so, in an effort first to gain more information from a broader source, I started visiting (for the first time in my 44 years) some blog sites, particularly those originating in the region. One of the first things that caught my eye was Katharina’s question. Although a narrow question, surely the answer would reflect on the core values of the region. Needless to say, Abed, I was shocked and deeply offended by the answer. And, after this conversation, with your and Dozz’ responses (which I have likewise found impolite and disrespectful), I’ve heard and seen enough. I’m no longer interested. Its your region, your future, your problem. Good luck with it.
on 30 Mar 2006 at 3:09 am # JustKatharina
Joachim
i called it “fucking crazy”cause i dont understand it..i sayed its soemthing from the “stone age” cause in my believes that is where people killed each toher and now should be a time of peace..abed didnt feel offended by this(i hope)cause he knows that i at least try to understand and cause he knows we both have the same goal PEACE..our choice of words,culture and religion might differ but thats who we are and peace is what we r seeking!
on 30 Mar 2006 at 3:11 am # JustKatharina
ps:joachim: lets hear ur speculation why abed holds a differnet standards when it comes to me…
on 30 Mar 2006 at 7:49 am # Abed. Hamdan
Joachim: I don’t know why am I replying this, but when Katharina asked her question : she said this is “fucking Crazy” about the killing issue, and It was clear. But you called Muslims Barbarians, and suddenly you jumped to “9/11″ and then you repeated all the attacks that muslims were accused of, and started to accuse and humuliate. you said i will not answer Katharina question ’cause there’s no answer.
It was clear from your posts that you were not seeking truth or looking for answers to questions or even looking for a decent conversations, you were looking for a fight, accuses, and nothing reasonable. Im so sorry that one of your age(44) could behave like that.
Again, if you’re looking for a decent conversation, then you’re welcome, disucss whatever you want, but i think respect is a major is major basis for conversations, aint it?
Im ready to have a decent conversation with you, if you want.
on 31 Mar 2006 at 8:57 am # Joachim
Abed, you’re a good man. And I’m sorry to disappoint you; age ensures neither wisdom nor temperance. After all, its always been that men my age (and older) start the wars for men your age to fight. Still, I remain both confused and angry about this rule imposing death for a man’s beliefs. And, I am quite concerned about how it reflects on the gaps between cultures, particularly given the increasing overlap of our two worlds. At times, it seems unbridgeable. But let me say, you have raised good and appropriate points about my manners and methods of expression on these sensitive issues, and I do apologize to you for the offence (I believe my wife thanks you as well). Perhaps our conversation is exhausted now, but I may seek your advice and insight on my many qustions regarding Islam, and on the issue that brought me here — Palestine. Good luck to you.
on 31 Mar 2006 at 10:23 am # Abed. Hamdan
Joachim: Thank you. I think we can have good conversation, specially on issues regarding palestine, Im palestinian by the way.
The problem was that you started with the word Barbarian, imagine that you want to start a conversation with a black man on the issue regarding racism against black people, will you start it by saying “you niggers are criminals and bla bla..?”. this won’t work.
and i have to apologize for being rude on some occasions. anyway, we are all here to seek peace and truth. and to discuss our differences and to reduce the gap between our two worlds. We all worship the same god, but each on his/her own way. We can’t live in an isolation, ’cause our worlds are -as you said- overlapped. Many westerns are Muslims, and many Arabs are Christians and Jews. Our media and your media are causing nothing but troubles, they highlight things that cause problems and increase hatered, we are trying decrease hatered and to discuss different points of view.
About Katharina Question, I tried my best to seek the answer, i posted the answer on http://peaceroot.blogspot.com
please read it, It might make some sense to you, and i will hightlight some points on it now.
1)One can change the religion from Islam to another religion with two options:
a. Keep living in the Islamic Empire, but without declaring the new religion.
b. Leave the Islamic Empire.
2) Execution is the last option. On some conditions, Jail can be the punishment.
3) All those measures are taken cause as i said, Islam was like a constitution of the Islamic country rather than a religion. so whenever one person changing the religion,it was considered a revolution on the Country. Again execution is not the only option.
I tried my best to explain that rule on
http://peaceroot.blogspot.com
if any point still vague, please feel free to ask whatever.
Arab countries nowadays are not ruled by the constitution of Islam whatsoever,and hence that rule doesn’t exist now. But However, In my own opinion, the Islamic constitution if applied well and completely (not selectively) is the best constitution(it’s my personal opinion).
I still insist that parts of Islam might not make sense, but sum of its part will make sense. and my friend “Chet” said the same thing applies for Christainity.
Thing is, we sometimes become mad, and we lose our sense in discussions, it happened to me when i first saw the Danish cartoons. and our media didn’t focus on the apologies of the Danish Press. I didn’t know that such apology exist untill i read it on
http://scandarabia.blogspot.com
Take care.
Regards,
Abed. Hamdan