” We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years, neither the United Nations, nor the U.S.A, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.”
- Ariel Sharon to Winston S. Churchill III in 1973 .
Reference:
Winston S. Churchill III (journalist, former member of Parliament, and grandson of the British prime minister) at the National Press Club, October 10, 2001, recalling his conversation with then-General (res.) Ariel Sharon in 1973 .
on 22 Jul 2007 at 4:22 am # Maioush
ok ok .. off topic here, you really have insomnia!!
what are you doing up till this hour? are you ok Abed?
on 22 Jul 2007 at 4:52 am # Mohanned
Quoting Pat robertson 2006: ““God considers this land to be his. You read the Bible and he says ‘This is my land,’ and for any prime minister of Israel who decides he is going to carve it up and give it away, God says, ‘No, this is mine.”’
on 22 Jul 2007 at 10:52 am # vagueraz
thats true abed .. thats their planes !!! but at the end Palestine will back enshalla I believe in that ,, we must not give up …….
on 22 Jul 2007 at 12:42 pm # bakkouz
Here’s another quote by Sharon:
“I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” - Ariel Sharon, 3 October, 2001.
source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/Sharon3.html
on 22 Jul 2007 at 1:32 pm # Reham
I took a class last summer called “The Palestinian Question”. It was great and taught me soooo much I didn’t know about the history of Palestine’s struggle.
What struck me was that through-out the class there was a trend that the Jews had… they always full-filled prophecies. What I mean by that is when the Jews came here, everything was planned in the long-term. And they followed through with every single one of those plans.
It’s remarkable how they slowly but surely reach their goals. I think history in general should be learned and used for improving the future. Palestinians especially would do good to observe their enemy and their history with their enemy in order to reach their ultimate goal… slowly but surely.
on 22 Jul 2007 at 2:51 pm # Ola
Wow! ultimate insolence!
on 23 Jul 2007 at 9:17 pm # eman
yeah mtf2een el shbab mn zman!
bs sharon ms5mat mztot bhal mostshfa wallah b2ate3 el 2alb!
Reham:
m3 meen a5dteha? sale7 3bd el jwad?
on 23 Jul 2007 at 9:41 pm # Rebellious Arab Girl
ufff…!!
on 24 Jul 2007 at 1:19 am # Abed Hamdan
Maioush: you got me
Yeah, I’m suffering from Insomnia, a temporary Insomnia Insha’Allah. Thanks for asking 
Mohannad: Thanks for the input! Though I doubt if their God asked them to Massacre people.
VagueRaz: Insha’Allah
Bakkouz: Thank you! and yes they absolutely do !
on 24 Jul 2007 at 1:22 am # Abed Hamdan
Reham: Our politicians are either corrupted or event-triggered! They lack the vision. And I agree with you here, we must learn from our mistakes, and we must start thinking of long-term plans. Slowly, but surely, as you said.
Ola: Well, turned out he was talking facts.
Eman: Allah la yjoor 3alaih el b3eed. 3ogbaal kanaynek
Rebellious Arab Girl: *sigh*
on 24 Jul 2007 at 9:36 pm # Reham
Hi Eman,
I took it with Sonia Nimr. I took the English version of the class. It was really awesome because it was a short summer class and the number of students was 14. The students there were foreign students from all over the world. Many of them were even doing their Masters degree on Palestinian politics and opted to take the class for more research info.
There were endless debates and discussions and most of those present had a lot to offer. Needless to say, it was an awesome experience.
on 26 Jul 2007 at 5:37 pm # bara2
i know many people who pried to god that sharoon would wish the death one day and never reach it .. see what is happening out there?i’m so sure that he prays to god to get him out of what he is in .. the pain and the other things and enshallah bo3dan laho .. kolo mn jebto el5asa bedfa3o
what he has done to the poor people who are doing nothing but protecting their home land ..allah m3ahom
on 26 Jul 2007 at 9:48 pm # eman
Reham:
yeah ok thats good. it was a great experience for u i c ;).bs u know wat it dosn’t matter with whom you take it, coz our political science department in Birziet is really the best.our teachers are great..hek b7es.
Sale7 3bd el jwad is good too, he opened my eyes, and gave me a new explaination for our history!
on 29 Jul 2007 at 11:36 am # palo-girl
allah ya5do
why isnt he already dead?
i hope hes suffering.
what id do to step on his grave -_-
on 29 Jul 2007 at 11:37 am # freezz
ift
on 29 Jul 2007 at 11:30 pm # Abed Hamdan
I’m not sure what good did his plan do for the Israelis ??
on 31 Jul 2007 at 12:03 pm # h
lol
on 15 Aug 2007 at 3:33 am # Hani Obaid
Just to be realistic not gloomy; that’s just the beginning. Try looking up greater israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel
Bible (book of Genesis):
On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates
This includes Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, UAE ,etc…
Its a very ancient strategy:
Divide and conquer
We’re already divided from the days of the English/French occupations. Now we can’t even stand each other. In the past Syria attacked Jordan. In the 90s, Iraq attacked Kuwait. In retaliation, some Arab countries sent troops to Iraq, others paid for the war, and others provided logistical support.
Times have changed, if we don’t change with them, we’ll be left behind.
on 12 Dec 2007 at 6:14 pm # Robby
What is the source for this quote?
on 13 Dec 2007 at 5:03 am # Robby
bakkouz: That quote has also been refuted - it was originally supposed to have been in the 1950s by Moshe Dayan. Do you have a reliable source?
on 13 Dec 2007 at 7:12 am # Abed Hamdan
Roby:
I read it in many places, it’s so famous. But if you’re concered with documented source, just google it, u will find many resources.
on 13 Dec 2007 at 6:05 pm # Robby
I’m not sure being famous makes it authentic.
FMEP, greenleft, David Irving - not exactly what I’d call “reliable” sources.
on 14 Dec 2007 at 11:40 pm # Abed Hamdan
Robby:
god…so you think they just made it up ?
listen, Google it, I found many resources related even to the United nations reports. Do I really have to google it and copy paste u all the resources ?? what’s the point ??
I didn’t make this up, It appeared on many books that I forgot where I first read it. It’s that famous. As I told you, i remember reading it in one of United nations report. I’m not sure If we can ask Churchil or Sharon now.
Let’s assume that I’m a big liar, making up sayings. The question is, did I also make up all those settlement across the west bank ?? That Pastrami Sandwich is a reality now. It’s something material that we can touch and feel. Whether Sharon said he will do or not, what’s the difference ?? If, hypothitically he didn’t say it which hypothitically “could” mean that those settlements were a sheer product of some unfortunate coincedence, does this make them legal or less brutal ?? Maybe less painful ?
I don’t know what’s the point of stressing the resource. The reality hurts more my friend. Those illegal settlements with the wall makes a pastrami sandwich made of concrete, blood, and agony. This doesn’t bring security to anybody. It will bring damn blood.
on 15 Dec 2007 at 12:27 pm # Abed Hamdan
Dear Robby
I’m very sorry, but sounds like I deleted ur last comment by mistake!! I got too many spam that I deleted ur comment by mistake, if you can please re-write again ??
I will reply it now.
of course I welcome the debate, and I prefer those who disagree
sorry for my tone, but I really have no time to track each reference step by step to reach the original reporter. What’s the point for god’s sake.
but I told you I found some United nations reference ?? and you too found some resources online. What kind of resource would you consider reliable ???
Now I will repeat my point. I told you that the whole point of this post is to highlight the crime of the illegal settlements. That’s the point to argue about. If we to reference every single point we mention, then we’ll end up in a bibliography or a directory of references ?? what’s the reliable reference that will prove that Shakespear said “to be or not to be” ?? let’s waste a couple of days finding out
Let’s argue and have a productive conversation about the situation now, and how to come up with bloodless solution ??
I’m open to any idea you present, specially those that will lead to productive proactive solutions. Historians may help more in crediting or discrediting the resources you and I found. But to me, this is not even the topic to consider
on 15 Dec 2007 at 6:01 pm # Robby
Abed:
I don’t recall my exact post but.
I didn’t accuse you of making it up or lying.
You’re quote is based on hearsay (which isn’t always wrong as you stated), but it was based on questionable sources with obvious agendas.
I also did not defend the settlements in the West Bank.
Not part of my original post: Too many of these threads turn into finger pointing arguments about who did what to who first. No, I’m not accusing you of that, just a statement.
IMO - Constructive, forward-looking dialogs are far more beneficial, but they are not as easy to participate in, it’s so much easier to just blame the other side.
on 15 Dec 2007 at 6:16 pm # Abed Hamdan
Dear Robby,
I agree that throwing accusation is easy, yet useless.
Ok, I will bring you the exact UN Report just to make sure this quote is true. Now crediting or discrediting the UN report is up to you.
So we both are against the illegal settlements. So let’s make this a common point interest towards a productive conversation.
Productive conversations aren’t as hard as they seem, I do it all the time here. You’re welcome
on 19 Dec 2007 at 5:51 am # Robby
Thanks Abed. I’ll start:
I am of the belief that a Palestinian State next to Israel is the only reasonable solution. There just seems to be too many problems with a single state.
I’d like to hear your opinion of why Annapolis will fail (assuming you think it will). Not with name calling, or blaming the other side.
IMO the first big mistake was not including Gaza, which, like it or not, includes HAMAS. I think Abbas exhibits good intentions but I don’t know how he can not include so much of the population.
And I think the second mistake is not relying on Jordan. Jordan is culturally the same as the Palestinians, yet they have diplomatic relations with Israel. Jordan is moderate and stand to gain/loose a lot from the process.
What do you think?
on 21 Dec 2007 at 4:39 pm # anon
This quote is crock, Churchill was dead for several years by then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9108565/Sir-Winston-Churchill
on 22 Dec 2007 at 3:48 pm # Abed Hamdan
Robby:
sorry for being late my friend, I just got busy having some fun, it’s holidays here, u know
I agree with you about the Palestinian state. But It should be independent state, with army and complete independence, not just a name. A state that will provide protection and an acceptable level of life, a level of which no future intifada or revolutionary be necessary.
Now speaking of Annapolis, I hope it succeeds. However, realistically speaking, I’d say it won’t.
With the current single pole governed world, I don’t think any state of stability in the middle east is allowed. Let alone Israel/Palestine.
I also agree about HAMAS. If Hamas was given a chance to negotiate, then there might be a hope. And I was not sure what difference would it make if Hamas did or didn’t acknowledge Israel. I mean come on, with the whole world along with the United Nations acknowledging Israel, what difference would it make if a small militant group did or didn’t acknowledge Israel’s existence. It was a stupod excuse, and It seems to me it was just something done to prevent any future negotiations.
on 22 Dec 2007 at 3:56 pm # Abed Hamdan
Robby:
by the way, I didn’t forgot the reference I promised you, I’m just busy, I will get it. So far, I’ve got this:
The quote was published here:
Winston S. Churchill III (journalist, former member of Parliament, and grandson of the British prime minister) at the National Press Club, October 10, 2001, recalling his conversation with then-General (res.) Ariel Sharon in 1973
on 22 Dec 2007 at 3:58 pm # Abed Hamdan
anon:
dude, how are you ??
Thanks for the piece of information, but the conversation actually took place between Ariel Sharon, and Winston Churchil III, grandson of the prime minister you’re talking about
on 27 Dec 2007 at 5:44 am # Robby
Abed – yes, we’re all busy these days.
Of course the Palestinian state should be independent and not just a name. Both sides need for their neighbors to feel free and safe.
I don’t agree with you, HAMAS is not just a “small militant group”. They were able to get elected by the Palestinian people. The coup in Gaza couldn’t have been legal, but even if they back down they still are still the majority government.
I also don’t agree about HAMAS being an “excuse”. Yes most of the world and the UN acknowledges Israel, but that is not who they need to negotiate with.
Israel has stated its criteria (over-and-over-again) for them to “start” negotiations with HAMAS, none of which is outlandish. Much the same way Syria has stated, since the first Assad, its criteria to “start” negotiations with Israel. Also the Saudi plan announced a few years ago (revived this year) had pre-conditions that Israel must agree to meet before negotiations could start.
What I don’t understand is how Abbas thinks he can ignore HAMAS.
BTW: If Sharon did say the quote then I don’t agree with him, it is the wrong approach. I still was not able to find a source that I trust, but that’s ok.
on 27 Dec 2007 at 1:19 pm # Abed Hamdan
Robby:
busy days indeed. I hope you’re enjoying your vacation. Mine is over now
Well, you disagree with Sharon. So do I. But my point was that this Pastrami Sandwich is real and already implemented now, whether Sharon said that or not. I’ve been in the West Bank this summer, and the situation is ugly. That pastrami sandwich is made of concrete walls and electrical seige. It’s horrible.
About HAMAS. Yes they seems to be the ones who won the elections. Elections are usually done for governments. But government of what state ? Blank-out.
So HAMAS’s acknowledgement of Israel existence is the only thing Israel demanded to start negotiations ?? What’s the importance of that ? Given the fact that Israel consider HAMAS to be terrorist illegal group, and hencefore arrested all its members upon the election.
So what’s the point of HAMAS imprisoned repsentatives akcnowledges Israel’s existence ??
Tell me, is there a point of acknowledging the fact that earth is not flat ?? It’s not flat, and Israel do exist. The existence is documented and global.
And If Israel and the United States, or any other powerful state did recognize HAMAS or give them a chance to negotiate, I beleive things will be different.
Hamas has become a subject of contempt amongst Palestinian, especially after taking over Gaza.
Abbas ignored HAMAS, so did the rest of the world. I don’t blame Israel for ignoring HAMAS, because Israel received orders to do so.
I told you before, I firmly beleive that the situation in the Middle East in general, and in Palestine/Israel is specific will be critical, as long as Super powers concerned. The United States will continue its odd aid to Israel, be it enormous financial aid or brand new weapons for purposes of testing and other purposes. More lives will be shed.
on 27 Dec 2007 at 6:56 pm # Robby
The pre-conditions were recognition of Israel, denounce violence against Israel, and accept past Israeli-Palestinian agreements.
The Palestinians will not attend negotiations with Israel unless they include 1967 borders, Jerusalem and the right or “return”. The last one has been redefined to a “just solution” for the refugees. Let’s just say Israel refused all three pre-conditions, do you think the Palestinians would still enter into negotiations? Do you think the Palestinians SHOULD enter negotiations if none of the pre-conditions were met, at least in principle?
Israel considers HAMAS a terrorist organization for their support of terrorist actions, including calling for the destruction of Israel. You can read their charter. And like another politician we both know (President Bush), they seem set on “staying the course”.
Yes, Israel, Abbas and the rest of the world has ignored HAMAS, but that doesn’t make it right. What would happen if current negotiations actually succeed, and there is a Palestinian state – I mean to Gaza? I don’t think you can sweep such a large percentage of the Palestinian people “under the rug”.
I don’t understand your comment about Israel receiving orders to ignore HAMAS?
on 28 Dec 2007 at 1:03 pm # Abed Hamdan
Dear Robby,
Let’s discuss the 3 conditions of Israel you just mentioned:
1)Denounce Violence against Israel.
but we both remember the cease of fire Hamas did for about a year, wishing that Israel would stop abductions and assassinations. Denouncing violence against Israel should also mean for Israel to denounce abductions and assassinations. Every couple of days or so Israel break into one village or city and kill someone or imprison another. There are 11,000 Palestinians in the prisons of Israel. And as I mentioned above, “violence against Israel” has actually stopped under the “Cease of fire” from HAMAS side, but Israel didn’t stop.After all, Israel is loaded with weapons that it should use.
2) accept past Israeli-Palestinian agreements.
But those agreements didn’t work at their time, did they? There was some error in them, or someone didn’t just fully comply ??
If those agreements were ok, then we’d be living the impossible peace, no?
Those agreements were sick, but anyway, Palestinians are the weak party, and we all know they’ll accept any sense of settlement, but that’s what the super powers doesn’t want. Who will by the new brand weapons and use them ?
You said you didn’t understand how Israel ignored Hamas by following orders. Well, I’m quite convinced that if Israel got orders from the United States to akcnowlege Hamas and start the “peace process”, then Israel would. This is a personal opinion. Unverifiable speculation of my own if you will
now back to the calling of destruction of Israel. Don’t you think it’s just unrealistic ?? Former Egyptian president (Nasser) claimed to be able to throw Israel in the sea. Did he ??
Hamas can say whatever they want, and here we’re not concerned about feelings. If the whole world started saying that Hamas can and will destroy Israel, then this wouldn’t make the fainest difference; because facts are facts. Israel has weapons that are capable of destorying the middle east in few minutes, and we all know it. Moreoever, Israel has the support of the United States (the dominant power), along with the European Union. Which means political power. So Israel combines both political and militant power. And sorry for disbeleiving Ariel Sharon when he claims that he protects poor people living in illegal settlelements by occupying more lands and building more illegal settlements because of the evil Hamas. It’s a joke taken seriously.
Hamas is a small dying group which is not capabale of doing the faintest harm to Israel. Hamas even lost their popularity in Palestine after they took over the already beseiged Gaza Strip. We’re talking facts and numbers. The power of Israel is well known and declared and that what matters. Don’t mind Hamas spokesmen who wants to destroy Israel, because they aren’t able to get themselves out of prisons and that’s a fact.
I will end with the same line, because I think It’s the core of the problem
” I told you before, I firmly beleive that the situation in the Middle East in general, and in Palestine/Israel is specific will be critical, as long as Super powers concerned. ”
Have a nice day Robby
on 28 Dec 2007 at 7:04 pm # Robby
1) “Violence against Israel has stopped”? HAMAS may have stopped firing, but they did not stop the other factions from firing missiles. This year the count is approximately 2500. There were 11 yesterday. And I think we both know that HAMAS could stop the missiles if they so desired. In recent days HAMAS has hinted at a ceasefire, which shows they believe they could stop it.
2) Yes the past Israeli-Palestinian agreements have failed. But when a government takes over it is not a “do over”. The spirit behind this was to recognize the “roadmap”, which was a Palestinian country next to Israel, which HAMAS refused. As for Palestinians being weak – quite a few might disagree with you. Certainly the Palestinians have been victims, but that is another discussion I’d be glad to have.
3. You can’t just dismiss HAMAS with the stroke of a pen, they were elected, they took over (and run) Gaza. Their popularity has slipped, which is not that unusual for governments, but they are still there. I’m sure there is a large part of the American population that would like to erase our government, but it doesn’t work that way.
It is not the occasional HAMAS politician that makes fiery statements about killing Israelis that is the problem; it is one of the basic tenets of their existence. They call for an Islamic state IN PLACE of Israel, not next to it. As Meshaal has stated, HAMAS will honor a ceasefire as long as the long term goal of replacing Israel with an Islamic country continues. No one in their right mind would begin negotiations with another party that is sworn to your destruction.
One last point about your response: If HAMAS is as impotent as you say then negotiations would be a waste of time for Israel, wouldn’t it?
Let’s hope the New Year is peaceful and prosperous for all parties.
on 28 Dec 2007 at 8:30 pm # Abed Hamdan
2) Road Map and the Saudi Initiative (which Israel welcome) were the basis that Hamas wanted to start negotiation on. But Israel imprisoned the repesentatives.
Road Map and the Saudi Initiative (or Arab Initiative) were new suggestions post-Oslo negotiations. Olso failed miserably, that’s what we don’t wanna repeat.
1)Of course there will be rockets, those that in essence more fireworks-like than rockets, but they will still go, because as I told you, Israel has no intention to cease fire, orders were not given to Israel either.
Hamas did cease fire for a long while, almost a year or so, and they stopped the rockets during that year, wishing that Israel could do something. It didn’t.
Now, I agree about the idealogy of HAMAS which is, in essence, the idealogy of the Muslims Brotherhood. Now discussing their idealogy and philosophy would span days if not months. But their philosophy is obvious, which states that countries should use Islam as en economical, political, and constitional system. This includes Israel of course lol.
Now if HAMAS beleives so, doesn’t mean they wanted to negotiate with Israel and tell Israel “hey we want you to destroy yourself and use Islam for Jewish people”.
They wanted to negotiate based on the current situation, which is as I said before, is reality. Israel in power, and talkin about destorying Israel is either stupid or to win propaganda related wars.
Since we’re talking about idealogies here, Israel isn’t innocent either. Go read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel
this is a rather dangerous idealogy, specially when adopted by Israel (whose army is classified as the most powerful army after USA, China, and the USSR).
And perhaps you disagree with Ehud Olmert when he talked about declaring Israel as a Jewish state (although it shouldn’t be surprising since the official declaration of independce of the state of Israel at 1984 was that This country is a country for Jewish people and will be called Israel.)
So we have both wrong (at least in my opinion) idealogies in both Israel and Hamas.
I’m underestimating HAMAS now, because this is their current situation. They were elected, but the whole world opposed them. Israel imprisoned their representatives (the political represntatives not the armed ones, just to make sure anarchy is faile-proof, I told you super powers are concerned in having aranchy in the middle east).
The whole world put the whole country under seige, just to make sure the people starve under the rule of Hamas. So Hamas failed miserably.
I’m not HAMAS supporter, but what I say is that Hamas were not given a chance, and the current Annapolis negotiations will make a short term temporary state of less blood shed at the most optimistic case.
You have an interesting point, you said that the Palestinians aren’t weak. I would like to know how ?
I , too, wish a peaceful new year, be it Palestine/Israel, Iraq, or else where. But I doubt it.
on 29 Dec 2007 at 2:42 am # Robby
Funny thing about the Saudi Initiative (IMO – a very good start for negotiations), all I ever read was that it was approved by the Arab Nations. I never read that HAMAS agreed to it. Kind of hard to believe they would, since they oppose to the basic premise.
Wanting an Islamic country is not the issue, unless the population does not want it. The issue is that HAMAS wants Israel to become an Islamic Nation.
IMO – HAMAS’ problem values ideology instead of reality. Ideology is nice but that doesn’t fill stomachs. It looks like their agenda is more important then peoples welfare. I don’t agree that HAMAS was never given a chance; they were told what it takes to play in the international arena and declined. It was their decision and they made it.
C’mon Abed, do you really think Israel is trying to spread from the Nile to the Euphrates? Have you ever seen/heard the Israeli Govt state anything of the sort, or found it in any document or charter. Certainly they would have never returned Sinai or left Gaza if that were the case. Even the article you pointed to cites “right-wing”, “far right” and “Arab Nationalists” as sources. Like I said, it’s not the occasional fiery speech by some politician; it is one of the basic tenets of the governing power (HAMAS).
I think you are underestimating or downplaying the missiles. Most do no harm, but they are falling at a very high rate. I’m sure you’ve seen the films of missiles being fired from populated areas – this is sheer stupidity. Some of Israel’s retaliations have been disasters, harming innocent people, and that is terrible.
Why do I think the Palestinians are not weak? Look at what the Arab world has done to them. They’ve essentially been sentenced to an “apartheid” life style of living; denied citizenship, land ownership, etc. for three generations. In almost every country in the world you are a citizen of the country you are born in, unless you are a Palestinian born in an Arab country. How many times was Yasser Arafat incarcerated, or in the center of Palestinian/Arab violence? And don’t forget the “loosely documented” amount of wealth skimmed from them by their leaders. Don’t you find it incredible they still survive?
Lastly: Israel is a Jewish state, the debate was silly. Look at the flag. Hebrew is the official language, etc. If some other country doesn’t want to recognize it, well, who cares?